Finding the Right Publisher for Your First Book

00:00:05:00 - 00:00:35:13

Cathy Hannabach

Hello everybody and welcome to Finding the Right Publisher for Your First Book.

I'm Cathy Hannabach, founder and CEO of Ideas on Fire, the academic editing and indexing agency that helps interdisciplinary scholars turn brilliant ideas into publishable, often field-shaping books.

I'm really thrilled to kick off our First Book Publishing Series with the session today. This is a six-part series that walks you through every stage of the first book journey—from proposal to publication and beyond.

 

00:00:35:15 - 00:01:03:19

Cathy Hannabach

Across these sessions, I'll be joined by acquisitions editors, editorial directors, production editors, and marketing directors from more than a dozen leading university presses, including the lovely folks who are here today, who I will introduce in a minute.

We're here to demystify the first book publishing process and share strategies to help you succeed.

At Ideas on Fire, we've helped hundreds of scholars refine their manuscripts, strengthen their arguments, and ultimately bring their books into the world.

 

00:01:03:21 - 00:01:21:21

Cathy Hannabach

We know how much thought and care goes into first books in particular, and we really love helping folks navigate that process.

If you have questions for our speakers during this webinar, you can click the Q&A button at the bottom of your screen to submit those, and we'll have some time at the end of our session to get through some of those.

 

00:01:21:23 - 00:01:46:02

Cathy Hannabach

Our fabulous speakers here today include Dawn Durante, editorial director of the University of North Carolina Press; Dominique Moore, senior acquisitions editor at the University of Illinois Press; and Mike Baccam, acquisitions editor at the University of Washington Press.

Tech support is provided by Ideas on Fire’s wonderful editorial director, Rachel Fudge, who I think some of you already know.

 

00:01:46:04 - 00:02:07:22

Cathy Hannabach

And she'll also be in the chat.

So, without further ado...let me do this.

To get us started, I would love to hear from our speakers: What strategies do you recommend to first time authors for researching potential scholarly presses and then assessing which ones might be the best fit for their book?

 

00:02:07:24 - 00:02:35:20

Mike Baccam

I think it's a great idea to talk to editors at conferences, talk to your peers, and look at books that have been published recently by the different presses.

Look at books that you really love and figure out where they're coming out of. I will say, recently is important there because something that was published even five years ago could not be what the presses necessarily emphasizing in their editorial program in the next five years.

 

00:02:35:22 - 00:02:48:07

Mike Baccam

So really, talking to editors at conferences and talking to your peers will really help you get a sense of what they're looking for now. So that's a good starting point.

 

00:02:48:09 - 00:03:21:23

Dominique Moore

A piece of advice I would add on to that…Excuse me, for those who might hear my little maltipoo in the back barking.

What I would recommend in addition to that is for folks who are on the conference circuit and do attend meetings in the space in their field that they take a look by the exhibit hall.

I would say not just look at which presses are at that particular meeting, but see the trends of what meetings you consistently see the same editors at, or the same presses at, because it lets you know—a little bit to Mike's point—about an investment in the field that any individual person might have.

 

00:03:22:00 - 00:03:40:02

Dominique Moore

It is not free to have those exhibit spaces and these booths. And so it does let you know something about where a press is allocating its resources. And that can be a really good and useful tool. As you're thinking about what presses are in a field and have a commitment to staying there.

 

00:03:40:04 - 00:04:04:15

Dawn Durante

I think those are great suggestions.

What I'd add is that a lot of university presses have been upping their game on social media, especially as we're chasing the proliferation of platforms given the transitions at Twitter. And so a good way to get the information about what presses are doing fed to you is following on places like Instagram and Bluesky.

 

00:04:04:17 - 00:04:36:06

Dawn Durante

And then you can also get a feel for like how a press might be supporting their authors out in the world and things like that.

And I think, you know, Mike made a really good point about making sure to think about what presses are recently doing.

One of the things I like to mention to authors is also if you get reached out to, if an editor reaches out to you and you're like, oh, I didn't have this press on my radar necessarily, it might be because they're in a building phase in a new area, which often means someone's devoting an extra amount of attention to that area.

 

00:04:36:06 - 00:04:57:24

Dawn Durante

One of the things I like to say is the presses that are on your on your bookshelf are a great place to start. But don't sleep on a place where maybe you didn't have it on your radar, but they're making a good pitch for you.

And in general, I think for all the answers we're going to give, I also do like to underscore there's not one right way for all of us to go.

 

00:04:58:00 - 00:05:22:06

Dawn Durante

Publishing is a process and there's some wrong things, but they usually are conventional social norms. So if you have ideas about pursuing a publisher or an editorial relationship outside of what we discuss, that's also fair game.

Relationships are the core of what we do. So thinking about those as you navigate which publisher to submit to is a really good strategy at the core of it.

 

00:05:22:08 - 00:05:40:07

Cathy Hannabach

I also find that authors, when they're at conferences, when they see the exhibition booths, when they see the acquisition editors, they often have questions: Am I supposed to go up and talk to people? What happens if I haven't already scheduled a meeting, or do they really want to talk to me if I don't have a book proposal in hand?

 

00:05:40:07 - 00:05:52:20

Cathy Hannabach

I get a lot of these kinds of questions. I'm curious how the three of you navigate that, when you do want them to come up to you, you do want them to introduce themselves and start that relationship there.

 

00:05:52:22 - 00:06:10:15

Dawn Durante

I love it when people come up to me at a conference.

I don't personally prefer it when someone hands me a proposal because I will lose that paper in the flight back. I am not someone who loses a lot of things necessarily, but I organize my workflow a lot with my inbox, so email's always great.

 

00:06:10:17 - 00:06:28:08

Dawn Durante

But if we're at a conference, I’ve actually started building a lot of time into my conference schedule that is unscheduled time, so I'm not in back-to-back meetings, to try and catch people like that who are just like, oh, by the way, I couldn't reach out or I heard you're working with one of my friends, so I wanted to stop by, something like that.

 

00:06:28:10 - 00:06:50:19

Mike Baccam

Yeah. And I would say I also love talking to people. Us editors are at the conference and we're trying to get your attention anyways. And sometimes it's okay if you browse the books too. But don't count on being able to talk to us for a long time at the conferences. Sometimes we'll have a great window where we can sit and talk to you for ten minutes, but other times we gotta, like, run to a meeting.

 

00:06:50:19 - 00:06:56:11

Mike Baccam

So be prepared to follow up later or just have a really quick conversation.

 

00:06:56:13 - 00:07:22:07

Dominique Moore

To double up on that, because I would say I'm one of the editors that I don't historically take meetings at conferences. I really like the work at a conference to be serendipity.

I always say the book knows where it's supposed to be before any of us ever imagined that. And so to allow that process to happen, to let those kind of ad hoc conversations take place.

And while I don't say that it is necessary to have an elevator pitch,

 

00:07:22:09 - 00:07:43:16

Dominique Moore

I believe that every scholar is benefited by learning how to talk about their work in 30 seconds or less, is what I would say. There's a part of my job where I have to put together a 25-word rationale for folks who don't have any experience with the work, and having really down cold what you're doing and why it matters, and for who it's for, is going to be the best way to evaluate folks.

 

00:07:43:16 - 00:08:05:02

Dominique Moore

Sometimes I tell people, people ask me, how do you start evaluating a project? I'm evaluating it right now as you've been speaking to me about your work.

It's a lot easier to articulate work verbally than in writing. well, it usually is. There are always exceptions to that. But usually we have a pretty good mastery of how to communicate with folks since we talk so much just in our lives.

 

00:08:05:04 - 00:08:33:18

Dominique Moore

And usually if there's a struggle to communicate the work...

I consider myself to be a generalist, so I don't know any field with any level of depth that scholars themselves do. But I have a pretty overarching understanding of how the field works.

Being able to make that digestible to me, like I said, in about 30 seconds or less is very important for you as you're thinking of someone. You are the best advocate for your work, and being able to pitch and present in that way can be very important.

 

00:08:33:20 - 00:08:54:24

Mike Baccam

Yeah, and I would say the pitch is not just for the pitch either. We want that in the book. You should be able to articulate what your project is about in an accessible way and make it compelling in a short period of time.

 

00:08:54:24 - 00:09:14:13

Cathy Hannabach

That's also good work for what's going to go in the manuscript to and what will go in the book proposal presumably, another document where you're pitching your project not only to the specific acquisitions editor, but to their colleagues because they have to sell it to other members at the press as well.

Our next webinar in November is actually on book proposals so we'll cover that in depth there.

 

00:09:14:15 - 00:09:38:02

Cathy Hannabach

But I would love to hear from all of you: When you read a book proposal, hopefully not handed to you in person at a conference, but maybe emailed to you, how do you know that that book might be a good fit for your press?

Or maybe conversely as well, what are some of the red flags or signals that say that that book might not be a good match for your press, even if it could be a perfectly good match for a different one?

 

00:09:38:04 - 00:10:04:10

Dawn Durante

When I get a proposal, I am so interested in so many more things that cross my desk than I could possibly take on. So when I'm thinking about fit for the press, I'm mostly thinking about are the press and the project equally suited to support one another?

So if I'm reading a project and I'm so fascinated by it and I'm like, dang, we're not the best press for this,

 

00:10:04:11 - 00:10:29:06

Dawn Durante

I feel like I have like a responsibility to also say, I think you should try these other presses. So when I'm thinking about fit, I'm not just thinking about what will fit with the press. I'm thinking about, okay, is there a mutual relationship here? If I'm considering a project, say, for a series, will this series will do as much to support this book? It's as curated a list of titles as we can to support the book.

 

00:10:29:08 - 00:10:45:24

Dawn Durante

Sometimes when you're growing a list, you tilt a little more in favor of the benefit to the press.

Sometimes you get projects and there are similarities across them. You're like, can I absorb multiple books on a topic like this? Would it be good for the book itself? Would it be good for the press?

 

00:10:45:24 - 00:11:02:24

Dawn Durante

And so I’m wrestling with some of those things in terms of the marketability because I never do justice to a book if I acquire it but we're not the best press to sell it. Because at the end of the day, it's not just sales. It's getting it in the hands of its likeliest readers in terms of dissemination.

 

00:11:02:24 - 00:11:24:18

Dawn Durante

So if a press has a reputation for certain areas and a book feels like it could be an outlier for some of those, based on my internal perspective because I know the backlist, I know what's in the pipeline, I can say very responsibly I don't think we're the best fit because we're not going to be the one to maximize getting the baby

 

00:11:24:18 - 00:11:30:06

Dawn Durante

you've spent so many years writing and working on into the hands of its likeliest readers and audience.

 

00:11:30:08 - 00:11:55:18

Dominique Moore

I like to look at that bibliography, a selected bibliography, of a proposal. I like to see what texts you are engaging with in the proposal itself.

I always say I can see a proposal that a little ham-fisted to fit for the press. It's like you really can't be in communication with our backlist and, in a way that I think to Dawn's point, is in best service to the work.

 

00:11:55:20 - 00:12:16:16

Dominique Moore

And that is a lot of I would say.

The acquisitions editor’s primary skill, I always say I'm trying to anticipate where a field is going and beat it there. That's the game we're playing to develop a good backlist because we really do plan on having a lifelong relationship with the scholarship and hopefully the author, once it's all said and done.

 

00:12:16:16 - 00:12:38:13

Dominique Moore

So being able to see what type of text you see your book performing like. Do you have a lot of trade-like titles? That might be nice, or academic trade titles, but that's not necessarily what we're looking for a first time author. So we might have to have a conversation about expectations. What hands do you believe this work should be in and can the press actually best serve that?

 

00:12:38:15 - 00:12:56:10

Dominique Moore

And to Dawn's point, I always say sometimes the best thing I can do is just tell you that I'm probably not your editor. A lot of folks I work with, they often hear why? Why have you talked to Duke? Have you talked to such and such? Because we get a feel for different types. Every press has a personality and being like

 

00:12:56:10 - 00:13:13:00

Dominique Moore

this book feels like a book for them. I always try to send people on their way and be like, come back to me if it doesn't work out there because there's interest there, but it's not best that we do this now. Especially if we're talking about a proposal, then there's time to place it with the right press, I believe.

 

00:13:13:02 - 00:13:44:13

Mike Baccam

Following from Dominique, echoing what both of you said about expectations. I really like to look at the audience section of a proposal and see if the author is being realistic. First off, if they're being realistic and also if they are serving, if they see themselves appealing, to the same audience that we would see the book appealing to because I don't want to shoehorn your project into our list if it's not fit.

 

00:13:45:18 - 00:14:01:19

Mike Baccam

I think you want to be realistic about who you're going to reach and who the primary audiences are. That will help us determine a fit and not just see you trying to make it fall wherever we want to publish.

 

00:14:01:19 - 00:14:29:09

Cathy Hannabach

So often I find that authors sometimes try to chase trends in publishing or worry that they should be, that this is something that they should be tracking.

I'm curious, given all of your experiences at your individual presses that you've worked at, how do you think that first time authors should try to balance what's currently hot and being talked about with long term fit and relevance of their scholarship?

 

00:14:29:11 - 00:14:50:13

Dominique Moore

One of the first conversations I like to have with scholars, I tell them for pie-in-the-sky, 15 years out from now, where are you? What type of institution are you teaching and what are you working on, ideally? And then we reverse engineer work. You should be published based off of that, I say. Like I said, if you find yourself in an interdisciplinary field but I know you want to be back in a more classical field, like

 

00:14:50:13 - 00:15:07:08

Dominique Moore

you want to be in the discipline of archeology or anthropology, that's something that's important to know because that has implications for how you should write the book. It has implications on how that book should be reviewed, what type of scholars really need to vet this book and say it's ready to go out in the world—for the career that you plan to have?

 

00:15:07:10 - 00:15:23:10

Dominique Moore

And I like I said, it's a long tail, a long game, because of course we do have to get it out. That's why I recommend start talking to editors early and often so you can start shaping this for yourself. I start having conversations with folks once they've defended the dissertation idea

 

00:15:23:12 - 00:15:34:10

Dominique Moore

because I do believe that the work can start back that early. When we think about what type of writing career and do I see myself as a writer, and how does everything contribute to that endeavor?

 

00:15:34:12 - 00:15:57:12

Mike Baccam

In acquisitions, we work on such glacial timelines that it's hard to chase trends. I feel like it's like, oh, this is really hot right now. But what about in three years when your book comes out? Maybe an avalanche of books have already come out on this topic or whatever your type of analysis or things like that. But I think that chasing trends is really doing a disservice to your own work.

 

00:15:57:12 - 00:16:17:04

Mike Baccam

You want to say what you want to say with conviction. And I think if you're chasing a trend you're oftentimes not coming from a place where you're saying what you really want to say and you're studying what you're excited to study and research, going to the archives, researching what you want to research, with energy.

 

00:16:17:06 - 00:16:31:04

Mike Baccam

And people can see that on the page. So if you're a part of a trend and you want to lean into it, fantastic. Keep going. But I wouldn't be like, oh, something's hot over there. Let's chase it or yeah, I'll stop there.

 

00:16:31:07 - 00:16:48:04

Dominique Moore

And just to like double up on that, I think, well, I will say I saw that when it came to how people wanted to talk about COVID-19 and their scholarship, right when it was happening. And I would almost say the hotter and splashier topic, you probably shouldn't say anything about it because you can't really give it the type of sophistication it deserves.

 

00:16:48:04 - 00:17:09:03

Dominique Moore

There is a lot of work that, in my opinion, came out during that COVID bubble, and it's still coming out right now, where it's a little half cocked. The argumentation, because it happened a little too fast, and it's like, yeah, you're kind of talking about COVID, but not really. Like you're kind of just using these terms to end in your epilogue. And try to again reverse that,

 

00:17:09:03 - 00:17:15:23

Dominique Moore

you've really thought of this as a through line of thinking about the scholarship. So I usually do try to recommend against it.

 

00:17:16:00 - 00:17:34:04

Dawn Durante

Honestly, one of the great things, one of the benefits, of a university press is we're in it for your book to stay in print for the long game. It's one of the advantages. Sometimes people see if they're in a position to consider a commercial publisher versus university press publisher.

We're going to be thinking about your book in ten years.

 

00:17:34:04 - 00:17:58:02

Dawn Durante

It's our business model. It's a different business model than other aspects of publishing where it’s a bit more like front list after two years. There's like it's sold when it's sold.

But we're working really hard to make sure, through peer review, that this is standing up for the test of time to getting you to where, as Dominique said, where you want to be in the next iteration of your career or in the long run.

 

00:17:58:04 - 00:18:16:21

Dawn Durante

Those books staying in print is kind of fascinating. I mean, I remember when 9/11 happened, the Oxford University Press backlist of Middle Eastern studies, there were reports about how well it was selling.

I used to be at University of Illinois Press before Dominique and there's a book on P. T. Barnum.

 

00:18:16:21 - 00:18:39:10

Dawn Durante

When that Greatest Showman movie with Hugh Jackman came out it was an old book already, and it was in the bestseller list.

So if you write the book, I think like Mike said, with your conviction and your expertise and you can connect it to presentist things, those two things are what's going to make it last.

 

00:18:39:17 - 00:18:59:21

Dawn Durante

I often actually coach authors to get rid of relatives, like saying “currently” or “last year.” Well, in 12 years when people are still reading your book because we're going to still be publishing it, that's out of date. So how can we design it relevantly in the big picture, disciplinarily, but also at the textual level.

 

00:18:59:23 - 00:19:18:15

Dominique Moore

A large trend for first time books, we've done quite a few first time books and oftentimes we might not necessarily do that second or third book. But for a lot of scholars that first book pops after book two takes off and you've got some heft in the field, people go back. Like I said, for a good first time book

 

00:19:18:15 - 00:19:30:00

Dominique Moore

I'm not expecting to see a benefit from it for the first five years because I'm anticipating a scholar is going to be somewhere in five years that makes people come back and discover their early work.

 

00:19:30:02 - 00:19:51:02

Cathy Hannabach

As those of us in publishing and in academia know, as you've pointed out, first books are often tenure books, and they set up that next stage of career in some pretty unique and dramatic fashions. Part of the way that plays out in terms of publishing the first book is that tenure timelines are often very unforgiving.

 

00:19:51:08 - 00:20:12:23

Cathy Hannabach

And, of course, they're set by a university, not by an author per se, and not by the publisher, no matter how much we might want that to be different.

I'm curious what tips you all have for authors in terms of balancing their author timelines and priorities, tenure related or otherwise, with publisher production timelines and priorities.

 

00:20:13:00 - 00:20:32:15

Dominique Moore

Baking as much time into your process as possible. That's why I say having conversations early. I love to give the example of COVID kind of really happened at a pretty integral time in my own career, and I remember having to get people out the door. The archives are closed, so you've got to get rid of the photo.

 

00:20:32:15 - 00:20:48:17

Dominique Moore

You've got to put it out to the world. And so having that type of flexibility and not waiting until the last minute to do some of these ticky tacky things that when you start out, you don't really understand why they must be done. But publishing is this weird thing that you don't understand it until you've done it.

 

00:20:48:19 - 00:21:01:23

Dominique Moore

I would say I'm still trying to learn the beast that is publishing, but those types of things, again, that allow you to have the time to be flexible. And I think you can only do that by early exposure to the publishing process. Or it's the best way.

 

00:21:02:00 - 00:21:20:21

Mike Baccam

I mean, give yourself as much time as possible. We don't want you to be writing right up against the clock. It's just extra stress and production timelines can be really unpredictable, especially with different presses. Sometimes it can go quickly, but even if it goes quickly, that's a year until you have your book.

 

00:21:21:02 - 00:21:46:13

Mike Baccam

So you have to figure out what do they need. Do they need the book in their hands for your tenure file, or do they need it through press committee approval or through a peer review or a contract, things like that. You need to figure out what exactly you need and honestly build as much time in front of that as possible—a year, 18 months—just to give you wiggle room because you might get peer reviews and be like, this is a really bad time for me to do this.

 

00:21:47:08 - 00:22:15:10

Mike Baccam

I want to circle back to this in three months. But if you're right up against the tenure timeline, then you might not be able to have that luxury.

And on the same front, when you do have those spaces to work on your projects, when you have lighter course loads, if you have a quarter or a term where you're expected to be writing and researching, you really have to take advantage of those times to finish as much as you can.

 

00:22:15:12 - 00:22:43:01

Dawn Durante

When I talk with authors, I talk about how what I really want out of our relationship is hopefully a collaboration. I'm getting the benefit of all their wisdom about their area, and I hopefully can be equally as generous in the wisdom I'm still learning every day about publishing giving back.

But I can't really be a very good collaborator if there's a set expectation or a goal in mind that I'm not being made aware of.

 

00:22:43:01 - 00:23:01:07

Dawn Durante

I'm not trying to be nosy, but in order to be a team player, I find it really helpful if authors share some of their particulars of their timeline early on. I don't mind it in a cover letter for a proposal, in fact, because sometimes people have such a very urgent tenure timeline.

 

00:23:01:07 - 00:23:19:17

Dawn Durante

I know we can't publish the book that quickly, and I will not waste their time. I will say we're not, I can't do it. That's our production timeline alone, and we need peer reviews. So I can be more transparent. I can be more helpful with the more information I know.

Another tip I give people is to get what your tenure committee expects in writing.

 

00:23:19:20 - 00:23:37:15

Dawn Durante

Because admins change. You don't want the expectation to change because we are planning a lot around a certain set of timelines and circumstances. And some organizations are great and they have a handbook and you can reference it. And sometimes it's a little less official. So that's one thing that I often ask. I'm like, do you have it in writing?

 

00:23:37:16 - 00:23:58:10

Dawn Durante

Hey, let's work around this.

Both my colleagues on this panel have already talked about timing and how I always say it is we can always slow the process down. We can never speed it up. We can never make a reviewer return their report sooner. But you can take as long as you need signing that contract

 

00:23:58:10 - 00:24:17:12

Dawn Durante

if it turns out that it be more advantageous to you to sign it in the next academic year. I don't love it when they just hang out on contracts to sign.

But I'm saying, we can manufacture more time if we need it, if we've not hit the urgency we can slow things down if there's time to do it.

 

00:24:17:12 - 00:24:21:19

Dawn Durante

But we can never find more time in the process just because of how it works.

 

00:24:21:21 - 00:24:46:00

Cathy Hannabach

I think that element, that the production takes the time that that press’s production takes, is something that a lot of authors aren't aware of going in, and often, well not often but sometimes I’d say, run into issues with. And it could just be fixed by talking about that more explicitly earlier with their acquisitions editor. So I love that advice.

 

00:24:46:02 - 00:25:07:00

Cathy Hannabach

I know that one of the things that first time authors are often weighing in the process of finding the right publisher is publisher prestige or reputation in the fields that they want to be a part of against more practical concerns, particularly for tenure books where the stakes for these things are much higher in many ways than subsequent books.

 

00:25:07:02 - 00:25:31:20

Cathy Hannabach

So I'd love to hear from all of you how you think authors should weigh the reputation of a press in their fields against factors like timeframes, as you were saying, communication practices, the press’s distribution or marketing techniques or reach, and, let's be honest, likelihood of acceptance because tenure books have a certain practicality to them.

 

00:25:32:00 - 00:26:01:05

Cathy Hannabach

So how do you think authors should weigh this is a super hot press in my field, and it would look amazing for me to be published with them, both to a tenure committee and to the communities I care about, against the more practical concerns like what it's like to actually work with the human beings and the processes at that press?

 

00:26:01:07 - 00:26:21:23

Mike Baccam

I mean, it's quite difficult. You have people telling you where you should be publishing but you might want to publish it somewhere else, or maybe where you want to publish doesn't isn't a right fit for you so you have to think of other options. I like to tell people to keep their options open, take care of their career.

 

00:26:22:10 - 00:26:42:11

Mike Baccam

I totally understand. I talk to a lot of people who want to work with us and publish with us, but it's like, hey, my chair, my committee won't see this as the most prestigious university press. I'm like, hey, that's fine, we'll work on something together in the future. And that's no problem for me.

 

00:26:42:11 - 00:27:05:01

Mike Baccam

So don't worry about our feelings. It's totally fine if you have to go take care of yourself. Publish where you feel like will support your career and your career path and where you want to go, like Dominique mentioned earlier. Like if you want to be seen more in this field versus a different field and if that publisher is more known in that field, that's important too.

 

00:27:05:20 - 00:27:27:02

Mike Baccam

Maximize the practicality of it as far as how it's going to work for your career and then after that, there's just a bunch of factors as far as like, what do I what do I prioritize? Is it the marketing and distribution? Is it the design of it?

 

00:27:27:02 - 00:27:44:04

Mike Baccam

Is it the editorial relationship? Is it the production timeline? All of these things come into play and you usually can't get everything you want. So you have to talk to different editors and figure out where you can compromise and what's most important to you.

 

00:27:44:06 - 00:28:00:20

Dawn Durante

You got to take care of getting that promotion and getting your salary and all of those material things that really add up over a career. I say, I have a lot more books left to acquire. You might have a lot more books left to publish. We'll work together someday if it doesn't work out for this one.

 

00:28:00:20 - 00:28:20:03

Dawn Durante

And that doesn't even have to be like the material hurdle of your tenure committee. Not like you're not liking a certain press. There can just be other aspects to fit. I've worked with people who have said, if I don't publish one of these three presses, I will not get tenure. Then those are your three presses.

 

00:28:20:03 - 00:28:40:04

Dawn Durante

You have a narrow field that hopefully makes your job easier. When things like that aren't a factor, when you have a lot of room to figure it out, you look at a press’s list, you look at the things that we've been talking about.

But I also want to use this question as a time to talk about the editorial relationship you'll build with an editor.

 

00:28:40:06 - 00:29:01:14

Dawn Durante

I think that a lot of folks, and I can speak for my two colleagues on this, we're trying really hard to work against these ideas of gatekeeping as a negative and think about how can we cultivate, how can we adjust, the power imbalance that can happen when editors and publishers are making decisions that impact your career?

 

00:29:01:16 - 00:29:23:03

Dawn Durante

So when I think about things like that, I think about making sure authors feel empowered to know you can make a choice of who to publish with based on feeling like, oh, this editor I didn't really think that we had a good working relationship, or I know my mentor says this press is great, but I feel like I had a better connection or I'm liking what I see with

 

00:29:23:05 - 00:29:45:06

Dawn Durante

the marketing support of this place better. Those are all fair things to consider and factor in. We're expected to be professionally courteous. And if you're finding like there's weird things happening, like that seems like we're…

The academy can tear you down, but you want an editor to build you up and be an advocate for you from day one for your project.

 

00:29:45:08 - 00:30:04:16

Dawn Durante

So just thinking about those things as well, because you can publish with like a press where your mentor published and it was all well and great for them. And you know, that might not serve you best.

So you know, within that, again, all things equal on paper, go with the place that you feel good about.

 

00:30:04:16 - 00:30:21:14

Dawn Durante

And it's not a closed door if you decide not to move forward with a press or an editor. We understand, it's relationships over years, that you're talking to people. So what you decide for your first book may not be what you decide for a second book, for a whole host of reasons. So we play the long game with folks, if that's helpful to hear.

 

00:30:21:16 - 00:30:37:20

Dominique Moore

I'm going to be the slightly contrarian person on the panel when it comes to this question because I believe prestige is probably king for most folks. And if it's not, academia is probably not the place for you. I think that's just fair to put that out there, that that matters to people.

 

00:30:37:22 - 00:30:58:03

Dominique Moore

Because I do believe on the flip side of that, there can be a level of treatment and flippancy that some scholars have, depending on prestige. I don't deal with this as much as I have earlier in my career. But other editors, we do talk about this thing of like, yeah, we were having this great relationship for like six months or even a year

 

00:30:58:03 - 00:31:21:23

Dominique Moore

and then they're like, well, I talked to my chair and they said this place isn't prestigious enough. I get that that is important to you, but I don't necessarily know if that's the best way to relate to people because it does hurt feelings and it can be mean

Or folks who I know, we had a great relationship for a year, always responsive and always talking, and then you get the contract offer, and I don't even get the courtesy of an email letting you know you're going elsewhere, perhaps, or you're exploring your options.

 

00:31:22:00 - 00:31:38:06

Dominique Moore

Or like there's people where I'm like, oh, they heard from option one. That's why they're like F-me. That's not a good thing.

I think when we're talking about the art of building relationships with people, especially people who are in transient positions, such as editors. I do talk to folks

 

00:31:38:06 - 00:31:57:04

Dominique Moore

and people do remember that treatment on the other side of it as well. And there are people I have been treated in such a way once it was obvious that this wasn't where they need it to be or want to be. That sometimes sticks in the back of your mind.

And I think that it's important to have that conversation, too, because I think that is a conversation that editors do have amongst themselves on the ground.

 

00:31:57:04 - 00:32:06:18

Dominique Moore

And it can matter. It's an issue because it happens enough that it's not just rogue academics, we’re talking about a culture around prestige and how people do that in the world over there.

 

00:32:06:20 - 00:32:27:22

Cathy Hannabach

I wonder, too, if some of this stems from on both sides just not talking enough to each other. I know sometimes authors often don't know how much they should be communicating with acquisitions editors. They worry about communicating too much or revealing too much, or communicating too less, or not doing it,

 

00:32:27:22 - 00:33:00:09

Cathy Hannabach

basically not doing it right, whatever right is supposed to mean in that context.

And I think what all of you have been saying in various ways is to make that communication paramount to the way that you engage with any acquisitions editor, even if you don't end up publishing with it them.

So communicating professionally, communicating honestly, being upfront about your needs, about what you bring to the table, and acknowledging a publisher's needs and what they bring to the table.

 

00:33:00:11 - 00:33:19:06

Cathy Hannabach

Foregrounding that from day one, even in casual relationships or casual conversations all the way through to publication of beyond. I don't know, maybe that's a little Pollyanna-ish. But I do think that a lot of this, some of it at least, can come down to communication.

 

00:33:19:08 - 00:33:45:05

Mike Baccam

I mean, I definitely agree. If you communicate upfront about what your tenure pressure is, other presses you're talking to, at least I can moderate my feelings about how good I feel about landing a project or things like that.

But, also, you do want to work with an editor who you do as far as something that you want to weigh, like who you do feel like you can communicate with, right?

 

00:33:45:10 - 00:34:04:17

Mike Baccam

I've talked to authors who it's like, I'm so bashful about telling my editor that I'm late. I'm like, just tell them, don't be bashful about it. But sometimes you don't form that relationship, and that's a bummer. I definitely try to tell people to be transparent with their editors and communicate with them.

 

00:34:04:19 - 00:34:23:15

Dominique Moore

I'm gonna push back just a little bit on this, because I’m someone who has worked at presses with very different levels of prestige in a short amount of time to the point where I have worked with the same author at a very different place, and the behavior can be very different, based off of some of those things.

 

00:34:23:21 - 00:34:38:10

Dominique Moore

I sometimes say I was treated better as an assistant at UNC than I've been treated as a full editor at Illinois, sometimes by the exact same person. And there is something to what I do believe there that's worth examining.

 

00:34:38:12 - 00:35:02:19

Cathy Hannabach

So it looks like we have some great questions in the Q&A that link up to some of these things.

One person is asking about the audience question that I think Mike was talking about a little bit earlier. As a scholar, I mostly speak to scholarly audiences, but my book has the potential for academic crossover or trade, which, Dominique, that's something that you were mentioning as well.

 

00:35:02:21 - 00:35:20:11

Cathy Hannabach

So hoping to have a wider reach. This person's question is, how do they know whether that's realistic or not? And then how to communicate that with an acquisitions editor in the book proposal but also just in conversations with folks at conferences or wherever?

 

00:35:20:21 - 00:35:42:04

Dawn Durante

I think this is one of those things where collaboration is key, because if you express what you think your audience is in discussions with your editor or in your proposal and we have questions or we disagree, that's a really productive point of conversation. I get a lot of proposals where they're like, I'm hoping for a crossover audience.

 

00:35:42:04 - 00:36:07:01

Dawn Durante

And then I read the sample chapters and they're incredibly scholarly. Then it becomes a point where I can say, okay, we have a problem to be solved.

You identified like this potential audience, and this is how your writing style is going to not really reach that audience. So how do we reconceptualize and refine your audience perception and projection, or do we work on getting those chapters to where they need to be to meet that?

 

00:36:07:07 - 00:36:26:12

Dawn Durante

I would that say when you're conceptualizing and articulating your audience, precision is key. It was very recently that someone said, there's not really a general reader. And I was like, you're right. I read generally some topics, but not everything interests me. And so thinking about: Is it educational practitioners?

 

00:36:27:13 - 00:36:45:15

Dawn Durante

I mean, even if you were say NPR listeners, which ones? So trying to be really specific. You can have that crossover audience, but which segment of it? Thinking through things like that. How do you know if it's realistic or not? Think about who you're in discussion with.

 

00:36:45:15 - 00:37:06:16

Dawn Durante

A lot of like scholar-activists will say the communities I've been working with will be interested in it. That's a very finite and identifiable number of communities. That kind of thing.

Then if you're unrealistic, your editor is going to have an open dialogue to see if we can retool and make sure that you understand how the press would be positioning the book based on the material we have of it.

 

00:37:06:20 - 00:37:27:15

Dominique Moore

I want to double down on having a conversation and collaboration with your editor, because crossover and academic trade are very different at almost every press. From a numbers perspective, when someone says to me, just to put the numbers out there for folks, this has a crossover audience, that means I need to be able to move 600 to 1000 copies of this

 

00:37:27:18 - 00:37:48:10

Dominique Moore

within three years. That's a different number elsewhere. But that is ours. So having again, a data point to attach that to.

Then we have to ask, are there actually, because if I want to sell it to 600 to 1000 people, then that means it has to get its eyes on that many more people, sometimes even two or three or five times return on investment from that.

 

00:37:48:14 - 00:38:02:19

Dominique Moore

Like I said, that's very different depending on the press that you're at. Having that conversation with your editor about what your expectations are so that they can communicate exactly what they can do, when you're contextualizing what you would add to the proposal, is a fantastic idea.

 

00:38:02:21 - 00:38:26:02

Mike Baccam

I think it's a good idea to be hopeful that you can reach certain audiences, but that's more of opening the conversation to that. Putting it on our radar. So we can talk about, like Dawn said, it's often about like, this is really dense. Like, people aren't going to be able to hang with this, like, okay, then you're losing this other audience that you might be interested in, right?

 

00:38:26:02 - 00:38:46:12

Mike Baccam

So there's balance there. When I get those proposals, oftentimes I'll be like, let's do a Zoom call. We got to talk this out because it is not productive for me to respond on email and be like, no, that's not your audience. Or like, I'm not sure about this audience. It's really like if you want that audience, what are you thinking?

 

00:38:46:12 - 00:38:54:24

Mike Baccam

Are you going to revise this way? Things like that. Chatting it out is really helpful for that.

 

00:38:55:01 - 00:39:11:18

Dominique Moore

There's also a review of the profile of the scholar and not like do a lot of folks know you, but are you in the best vehicles to be knowable? Do you go to conferences in your space? The social media thing I go back and forth about. I think I might have said something a few years ago that's different than what I think now about social media presence.

 

00:39:11:18 - 00:39:28:14

Dominique Moore

I almost now say no social media presence is better than bad social media presence is what I would say. But again, are you a vibrant self-promoter? There are people who want to trade audience but they don't want to get in front of a general audience and talk about their work. The profile and

 

00:39:28:19 - 00:39:40:10

Dominique Moore

the personality of the scholar can also matter when it comes to the writing. Because if you don't want to do any of those things, then to that point the writing has to be that much better to compensate for all of that.

 

00:39:40:12 - 00:40:05:18

Cathy Hannabach

One of the other questions that was put in the Q&A is, I think, a classic one. We get this a ton, I'm sure you get this as well. It's an oldie but goodie.

Do you have a general rule for evaluating how much of a book can be previously published in journal articles or some other format such that your press would still be willing to include it in the book version that they accept?

 

00:40:05:20 - 00:40:26:15

Dominique Moore

I recommend no more than 10 percent of your book should appear previously anywhere. So I would say if you are reprinting or really revising one chapter, you're not going to hear anything from me. For the most part, when we start talking about two and definitely three chapters have appeared in some other contexts, then we do have an issue with promotion.

 

00:40:26:17 - 00:40:48:15

Dominique Moore

Again, these are oftentimes dissertation projects anyway. So how much of this has been fleshed out in front of people for them to consume? I always say when we talk about the world we live in, I'm interested in knowledge production as a commercialized endeavor, so it does matter. And if you're trying to ship this book, there are people who are going to look and say, well, we have access to so many of the ideas in these other fashions,

 

00:40:48:15 - 00:41:06:11

Dominique Moore

what is then the purpose of selling it, especially if you're talking about selling to a library market, which is where a lot of scholarly projects have to find some type of hold.

Because that's the reason for not doing so much republishing in the book is that, again, that material already exists and for people who are looking to purchase it, you have to give them a reason.

 

00:41:06:11 - 00:41:28:10

Dominique Moore

Why would they give you anywhere between $24.99 and $32.95, whatever the swing might be? Why would they do that? Why would they give us money in hand to do it if so much of it already exists?

And so thinking about it from that way, I would take your money idea, save it for your book. Your money idea should be your money chapter in your book. And that can be hard to do,

 

00:41:28:10 - 00:41:35:20

Dominique Moore

I understand, as people have to write and get something published in the context of trying to get their third year review and tenure under way.

 

00:41:35:22 - 00:41:53:11

Mike Baccam

Pretty similar here. Like one chapter, totally fine. Two, you know. Oftentimes those two chapters are so much transformed from what they were in the journal article that I have little worry. But, yeah, I think, one or two is usually fine for me.

 

00:41:53:13 - 00:42:11:04

Dawn Durante

A journal article is usually like half a chapter. And so if you're at one or two, it's probably around like that 10 percent. More than 20 percent, we're having a conversation. There is a generation where they could publish their entire their entire book as piecemeal and come to a press and we would publish it.

 

00:42:11:04 - 00:42:14:20

Dawn Durante

Those days are no more, for all the reasons that Dominique talked about.

 

00:42:14:22 - 00:42:35:18

Cathy Hannabach

One of the questions that was posted in the chat, is a really nice flip on something about the prestige question that we were talking about earlier. We were talking about the prestige of a press and authors evaluating that and making their decisions. But this person is asking, do publishers themselves care about the quote unquote prestige of the university or institution that the author is at?

 

00:42:35:20 - 00:42:39:17

Cathy Hannabach

And how does that play a role in acquisitions?

 

00:42:39:19 - 00:43:08:17

Dawn Durante

I do not. And I think most of us do not. We publish people who are independent scholars or at community colleges or at all sorts of institutions, have left academia but are still writing great books.

I would say one thing we do consider is something about profile. So if you have an apparatus within your university that pushes out lots of media when people publish, that might just mean we make different decisions about publishing the book.

 

00:43:08:17 - 00:43:27:08

Dawn Durante

Like maybe we print more copies from the get-go. So it's not a matter of how we base the decision to acquire the book, or to sign it, or to move forward to peer review and those sorts of things. It just might impact some of the decisions we make along the way of like, oh, well, this this author has a platform and is likely to sell more books.

 

00:43:27:08 - 00:43:49:11

Dawn Durante

So we will print more copies of it at the beginning. Or marketing might have different ideas for how to how to handle some of the way they pitch it to the world.

But again, at the end of the day, we're not concerned about prestige when we're evaluating the scholarly merit of the book, just how we might tweak the decisions about a publishing strategy.

 

00:43:49:13 - 00:44:12:03

Mike Baccam

I agree. And also, it does influence what we think of the kinds of resources you might have to find the time to write, to be able to get funding for your index so you're not doing it yourself or putting it on your credit card. That's going to impact, how you know, sometimes I know I can push an author because they're on sabbatical.

 

00:44:12:11 - 00:44:33:10

Mike Baccam

And sometimes I'm like, well, they have a full time job. We're just going to have to play this out and they're going to write when they can.

So it impacts what I know of your writing process a bit. But yeah, your profile does not necessarily include your university affiliation.

 

00:44:33:12 - 00:44:55:16

Dominique Moore

I would say I almost try to even not prejudice myself unknowingly. So I usually try not look at the CV or anything like that until I'm getting ready to pitch the project. I really like to evaluate the merit of the scholarship on its own. Like I said, I won't even consider your CV until I'm taking it to ask for a contract from my team, for that reason.

 

00:44:55:18 - 00:45:18:00

Dominique Moore

But it can signal to you, and I don't know if prestige is the right word, but the type of institution one is at can say a lot about how much the writing is valued by either the institution or the people at it. It says something about the community of folks you have around you, folks who are at institutions that don't privilege and prioritize writing and conducting research,

 

00:45:18:02 - 00:45:38:19

Dominique Moore

oftentimes, a lot of that developmental work then has to happen at the press. Those books usually take a little longer to review because more people have to look at it. They're usually not as ready to go out the gate. I'm usually paying slightly more sometimes.

What often happens is I'll get a reader who might say this book needs a lot more digging in than I expect it to.

 

00:45:38:24 - 00:46:12:23

Dominique Moore

And so then I have to compensate that person for that. So it can become from a resource perspective, I do try to balance it all because I wish I could have that level of resources to put on all of the projects, but alas, I cannot.

And so I might think about it from there because I don't know what the cause of that is, but there is some type of correlation as what I've begun to experience.

And I publish, as Dawn said, I publish independent scholars, I publish folks who work at community colleges, and I publish folks who work at Research 1 [R1] and sometimes even Ivy institutions.

 

00:46:12:23 - 00:46:15:12

Dominique Moore

And that can be the biggest difference.

 

00:46:15:14 - 00:46:34:19

Cathy Hannabach

Another question for the chat asks, about where to look for data points on, how many books are sold or how many books are expected to be sold. Dominique, you are mentioning some really helpful specific numbers, and I think this person is wondering where can they find that kind of information? Without emailing you directly.

 

00:46:34:21 - 00:46:56:15

Dominique Moore

You won't find it anywhere without asking us. In the beginning of first conversations, like I said, much to my marketing team chagrin, I don't think about print runs when I acquire books in the beginning. Are you crazy? But it's not something that necessarily all editors share. All publishers don't share that information with scholars.

 

00:46:56:17 - 00:47:20:19

Dominique Moore

It's part of my process, my practice. If we have that type of relationship, we can have that conversation. But that's not going to be evaluated at the beginning.

But at most presses, we've ran some type of profit & loss [analysis] on your book when we talk about bringing it forward for contracting. And if you would like an idea of what the press thinks about the sales capabilities, that would be the best time to have a conversation with an editor and see what they do share with you.

 

00:47:20:21 - 00:47:29:10

Dominique Moore

Very few are going to sell you what the projected print run is at that point. But like I said, those are the general numbers of what we're talking about when we use those terms.

 

00:47:29:12 - 00:47:39:19

Cathy Hannabach

Somebody else asked a question that I think is a really nice kind of opening: What do you think first time authors should be asking acquisitions editors that they don't?

 

00:47:39:21 - 00:47:55:16

Dawn Durante

If you have the question, that's the one you should ask, and you shouldn't be afraid that we are going to think it's silly or that it's not good enough. That's literally what we're here for. And we're spending the years of our lives trying to be able to answer those questions the best of our ability.

 

00:47:55:16 - 00:48:16:23

Dawn Durante

We're so happy to do it. I think it's one of those things where the worst question is the one you don't ask. But really, I think there's not one magic question because everyone's coming with a different set of circumstances. The questions that we get asked help us to know how we can best support people.

 

00:48:16:23 - 00:48:26:23

Dawn Durante

Because if I start talking about marketing and you're like, well, I'm going to lose my job without a contract, we should focus on contracts then. I think that that would probably be my best advice.

 

00:48:27:00 - 00:48:44:21

Dominique Moore

One question that I think that authors would better benefit from asking is what are their expectations for you when it comes to promotion? Your own promotion of the book can be something to think about.

And the other one I would ask, thinking about whatever your next project is, what are their option clauses? What do those look like?

 

00:48:44:21 - 00:49:01:19

Dominique Moore

Is there an expectation that your next book come back to them? These are again about long tail things, is this going to actually be in the legal document that you sign? What does that mean to the individual press?

I've been at presses where their option clause means we just want to know what you're doing.

 

00:49:01:19 - 00:49:16:11

Dominique Moore

But I have some where folks say it's a nightmare. Like they want to see the manuscript, the next one. And you should know that going in. But it talks about, again, that long term relationship building with either a press or an editor.

I've also had scholars ask me where are you going to be in 3 to 5 years?

 

00:49:16:13 - 00:49:34:22

Dominique Moore

Do they know? That might be important for you as somebody who you come to a press working with an editor, and you sign that proposal. That book is not ready for three, another three, years perhaps, and your editor doesn't work there anymore. And then the priorities of the press maybe change. And again, you don't have a personal relationship with that editor.

 

00:49:34:22 - 00:49:49:23

Dominique Moore

And there are some folks that I might really say, if you’re that worried if I'll be here in such and such years that maybe we should hold off on making a formal arrangement.

I think scholars would be best benefited by asking those questions. Like I said, there's no inappropriate question to ask, and I do get asked that by folks,

 

00:49:50:00 - 00:49:53:14

Dominique Moore

not as often as I think I probably should.

 

00:49:53:16 - 00:50:21:12

Cathy Hannabach

I'm seeing several questions that that address contracts in various ways. But I think one of the common themes here is when is a contract offered in the process, and when should authors expect that, expect to enter the beginning of that process? And is there anything that you would recommend that authors inquire about or avoid inquiring about in the contract negotiation process?

 

00:50:21:21 - 00:50:39:23

Mike Baccam

I feel like I sign contracts at all different points. Sometimes it's way early and the book's not going to be ready for 4 years. And sometimes it's right at the end right before it's going to the press committee after peer review. When it works for you, when you need a contract, let us know.

 

00:50:39:23 - 00:51:09:14

Mike Baccam

We're often going to put the contract on the table because we want to get your commitment. And we would love to solidify that. I don't think there's a right, perfect time for a contract.

I usually tell people with their proposal and sample chapters, getting an advance contract, maybe like 2 years, a year and a half until the manuscript is ready, is when I start thinking about a good time to put it under advance contract, but that's just kind of a vague idea there.

 

00:51:09:14 - 00:51:33:17

Mike Baccam

And then the one thing about the contract that I would say don't do is to send it to, like your lawyer brother or uncle or something like that. It's just we all have pretty templated contracts. There's very few points in those contracts that are, like, truly negotiable. And so, like getting a completely annotated, marked up contract back from us.

 

00:51:33:17 - 00:51:39:18

Mike Baccam

we're just going to say no to most of it. So be realistic about what you actually want to pay attention to in the contract.

 

00:51:39:20 - 00:52:00:06

Dominique Moore

Things that you can negotiate on a contract, for the most part, is your delivery date. You can negotiate that. You're going to be able to probably negotiate the number of free copies you can get. Most presses offer ten. That's usually what I've offered at most presses I've worked at. So you can negotiate that. You can negotiate when your language rights revert back to you,

 

00:52:00:08 - 00:52:17:24

Dominique Moore

which means when can I start shopping to translate on my own.

What I like to tell folks is that what a contract with a press means is that you have relinquished the rights to your book and you will be paid a royalty for that. And that's very serious work. I think that we as publishers can only do a better job of communicating what that is.

 

00:52:17:24 - 00:52:34:12

Dominique Moore

That means nothing about your book, a conversation about it from a legal perspective, can happen without the press once you've put the press in place. And so knowing what that means.

I've had folks go to the mat because they're like, well, I'm going to shop this for film rights, and again all of that has to come through the press

 

00:52:34:12 - 00:52:52:10

Dominique Moore

and through our rights manager, once you signed an agreement with us. I think a lot of people aren't necessarily, again, there could be a little more explicit conversation about what that contract truly does mean for you and what you can and can't negotiate out. And sometimes you can have rights revert back to you.

 

00:52:52:14 - 00:53:08:14

Dominique Moore

Some folks do get a license instead of signing over copyright. It does very rarely happen. Very rarely. Is not going to happen for a first time book author where you're going to get a licensing agreement as opposed to a copyright agreement where the press owns it. But these are things that you can ask for.

 

00:53:08:16 - 00:53:28:19

Cathy Hannabach

Okay, it looks like we are coming up on time. I do want to thank all of you for joining us today and answering these fantastic questions. I know we didn't get to everybody's, but I'm hoping that we'll be able to send out some more explanation for some of the topics that we didn't get a chance to cover yet.

 

00:53:28:21 - 00:53:54:09

Cathy Hannabach

I do hope that all of you are coming away with some new ideas, some insights, and hopefully some inspiration for researching and hopefully finding the right publisher for your first book.

I do want to say a huge thank you to our amazing speakers, for sharing your expertise and your enthusiasm for first books, and your honesty. I think it's been really invaluable for folks in the audience who are navigating that first book journey.

 

00:53:54:11 - 00:54:16:19

Cathy Hannabach

The recording for the session will be emailed to everyone who's registered, by the end of this week. So keep an eye on your inbox for that.

And finally, don't forget to join us for the next webinar in the series, which is crafting a winning first book proposal. And that's coming up on November 10th. And it features editors from the University of Michigan Press, Columbia University Press, and MIT press.

 

00:54:16:19 - 00:54:29:18

Cathy Hannabach

You can register for that on our website at ideasonfire.net. Again, thank you all for coming and thank you for speaking. I hope this is really helpful and I look forward to seeing some of you in our November session. See you all next time.

 

00:54:29:18 - 00:54:32:23

Dawn Durante

Thanks for having us. And thanks for joining us everyone.

 

00:54:33:00 - 00:54:33:17

Mike Baccam

Thanks everybody.

 

00:54:33:21 - 00:54:39:13

Dominique Moore

See you all around. Don't be a stranger. Say hello.